My bet is ego Cat... At least the little I've been exposed to him (which is far more than I care to be), he would make a poor spy. He is too full of himself.
I know that hating on Granger has been all the rage lately, but the man's not evil. Just blind. He cannot see Galina and Amy as conscious people because he knows how their consciousness works. He does not even hate them, just sees them as tools not people.
Would you all really condemn a blind man to a cruel and violent death for not being able to see what he's doing?
He's not blind, he's an egotistical, inconsiderate, numb-nutted jerkwad.
BTW those are his redeeming qualities. So yes he tried to kill one person who he had been told to not go near until accompanied by a full team, tried to order another one killed. Turn about seems like fair play to me.
True but brutal analogies here. Does that mean Hitler did not kill all those in the Holocaust because he didn't see them as human? Does that mean the Night Riders of the old south didn't kill those people because they did not see them as human?
This is what you are saying about Granger, his character didn't see them as human so he did not try to kill them. BULLSHIT!
I dont mind " spirited " banter but no attacks. everyone is entitled to there opinion right or wrong *points at granger - YOU sir are the weakest link! *
now at the core of King Mirs statement hes saying Granger sees galina as a "tool" and thats correct. he does. he thinks her protests and such are just malfunctions or designed to protect "trade secrets" and that everyone has been anthropromorphizing a glorified walking computer. he would even admit that galina is clever .. but only so much as one pats a animal on the head for mimicing a human.. and he knows for a "FACT" MOST machines can be copyed.. or shut down without harm Galina is the only special case here due to her organic brain hybrid .. so at best he is guilty of sloppy science.. at worst hes charged with attempted murder.. however the fact remains Galina is NOT considered Human if she is a "machine intelligence" ... case closed.
Hitler was a man trying to make the world a better place too. He was just wrong about what makes the world better. Failure recognize this dooms us to repeat the same errors.
But Granger's attitude is stronger than racism. A racist sees themselves as superior to others by virtue of their birthright, but does not generally fail to recognize others as people. People that can feel. People that can be hurt. Granger sees Amy not as a person that can feel but as a broken machine, a program with bugs that he cannot track down. Galina is a rival's machine with the same function.
That is indeed more tragic, but it does not make him more evil. Granger would not, as far as we have seen, try to kill a person to achieve his ends. He does not see himself as a killer.
He can't see them as people not because "he knows how their consciousness works". To know that would mean he'd have to have completely revolutionized the field of psychology. No, it's because he knows they were physically constructed by people, rather than born like humans and other animals.
However, having been ordered to stay away from Galina prior to this incident yet attempting to dissect her and see how she worked *anyway*, that puts another mark on the psychopath checklist.
Incidentally, psychopaths can't see anyone other than themselves as anything more than tools to achieve their goals...or obstacles to be removed.
He programmed Amy. That involves knowing how her consciousness and all or her mind works. That's precisely what the implication of true AI is. The act of programing is the act of describing behavior. A program is at it's core a description of behavior. That's all that Amy is -- a machine made to act like a human. And Galina is a grieving man's attempt to bring back his daughter.
He is apparently guilty of attempted software piracy, but that only puts him on par with someone downloading a movie via P2P.
Galina is a rare almost impossable mix of technologys ones that have never been attempted before and she operates totally diffrently than Amy .. Amy's defense protocols kicked in based on what grangers actions were provoking in Galina Amy "Judged" Galina human enough to protect. keep that in mind...
Mir stated the situation pretty well. Granger doesn't see Galina or Amy as "people", any more than a computer engineer sees a system he builds as a "person". This is not a question of psychopathic behavior or legal finagling; it's the flat-out truth. Human beings constructed Galina and Amy out of raw materials. Human beings cannot "build" other human beings in such a fashion (Dr. Frankenstein, stop raising your hand!). The paradigm of reality does not yet include constructed persons.
The expansion of the true definition of a "person" is kind of the theme of this entire story.
Granger would never try to hurt or kill a human being. He may not like very many people, he may be arrogant and full of himself, but he is not the type to commit violence or murder. He's not a psychopath.
That said, I'm bedazzled by how much hate the guy's gotten. This is AFTER Cent and I debated over how much of a jerk we wanted him to be; balancing "huge gaping asshole" with "detached scientist" has been challenging. I begin to wonder if he would have been LESS hated if he'd swanned in and outright belted May across the face like Cent originally conceptualized . . .
Actually, Rose, psychopaths aren't necessarily violent or murderous. (The term 'psychopath' has officially replaced the term 'sociopath' in current-day psychology--oh, by 'officially' I mean it was changed in the DSM)
For example, typical corporate CEOs fit all of the criteria for what is known as a "successful" psychopath. The violent, murderous psychopaths are considered to be "failed" psychopaths.
Well. It could be a reaction to scientists irl. How many condescending boffins with papered walls telling you how to run your life based on the 'latest study' cause they know better then you have we been subjected to? Both in terms of personal health and activities, but in world wide ones. I know I'm tired of the self aggrandizing lot of them acting like they have all the answers to everything cause they decided the science was decided. It's become more religion and they priests then actual science. And he ooooozes "I know better then you you ignorant schlemiel, now do as I say."
And violent psychopaths, while they grab headlines, are a lot less common that other forms of psychopathy. velvet has gotten it pretty much right.
Sorry Rose, if you didn't want him to be a psychopath, you and CentComm shouldn't have given him all the traits you have.
Now admittedly, we haven't been around him for years so there may be a completely different personality (heck, it is possible he could suffer from DID for all we know). What we (the readers) have been exposed to of Granger's personality shows a strong match of psychopathic characteristics.
I disagree, Granger does not have the traits of a psychopath. All that we've seen of him is that he was antisocial with May. Wouldn't be the first nerd to be like that. We haven't seen nearly enough of him to judge him to be a psychopath. Lets not be prejudicial ourselves when we call Granger out on his prejudices.
I'm actually being rather objective in my analysis, Mir, based upon evidenced behavior, attitude, mode of speech and previously revealed information about these things (earlier in the comic) coupled with my talent for pattern prediction and extrapolation, which is usually fairly accurate.
And so far, the primary trait Granger has *not* shown for being a typical 'successful psychopath' is charisma/charm.
Ahhhhh I wouldn't worry about dr. Granger's hate that much. A lot of readers are passionate about what's in front of hem right now and tend to forget earlier page especially if they ah event read them I a while.
Put dr. Granger in a few scenes where he saves galina's butt or something and I'm ready to bet that suddenly people will be singing his praise and because he's a jerk, probably say he's baddass or something like that.
It's easy to get caught up on the moment and the this is the first time we see him, and withouth a background story except for what was told in the comments so it's easy for people to demonize him since he was this close to kill someone we car about and he didn't seem to care.
I myself will reserve my judgement of him until I have a better knowledge/backstory or understanding of his character.
So far he is human, a flawed, mistaken, hopefully well intentioned that made a very stupid decision that turned out with spectacular results.
Also remember that the few pages only show basically a few minutes of real time. Realizations and reasonings have only begun to surface.
In most cases a robber recognizes that theft is wrong, but justifies his theft with some redeeming benefit. In contrast, Granger does not see anything majorly wrong about what he tried to do. Or with shooting Amy.
And I see nothing wrong with the Captain shooting him. In fact, I see far too much GOOD in it. I've had to deal with too many assholes like him, cull them out of the breeding population.
Lol pretty sure you mean unique I. Galina's case cent. Otherwise you may be I lying that galina's not the only one of her. Kind that currently exist(excluding the previous versions)
Ugh, no, 'cause then we'd have to listen to him and nod politely until we get to the part where we can punish him for failing to keep away from Galina, as instructed.
It also occurs to me, that in light of Granger's aforementioned innocence, the most reprehensible person in this strip is the one pointing a gun at him. Captain Yukimura apparently likes to solve her problems with violence and threats of violence.
I'm not saying that her position is unjustified either, but the irony is striking.
No, it is not. We not only have the right to defend ourselves, with violence, if need be. But we also have the responsibility to do the same for those who can't. With violence if necessary.
No King Mir. She is fulfilling her assigned role. Tokyo Rose ASSIGNED her to protect Galina. If Granger has (further) injured her, under that assignment Kiku has the authority to deal with him permanently.
It isn't a threat, it is a promise and an obligation. It also could solve two problems, Granger and the NEXT would-be Granger.
Putting Granger out of an airlock for injuring Galina would do no one any good. It would only serve Captain Yukimura's fantasy. Even if he had killed her, further death would help no one. Likewise shooting Granger for speaking would be a premature escalation; sticks and stones and what not. No matter what Tokyo Rose said, Captain Yukimura can't just shoot a civilian for mouthing off at her, and Granger hasn't even done that much yet.
Of course, as Centcomm points out, she's only threatening him. No one's going to reprimand her for doing that. The disproportional response could be considered a gambit to make Granger back down.
note Kiku has NOT shot anyone yet.. shes taking control of the situation. shes got to get this sorted out quickly Galina is screaming granger is injured and amy is .. well amy. trust me she actually wants to be able to make a cut and dried decision but its not that easy.
Precisely. She's not in any way threatening "personal vengeance", she's using a psychological tactic to gain control of the situation. Given her position as being assigned to insure Galina's security and safety, she *has* to have control of the situation to do her job.
But is she faking it, or is she as Don B. describes "fighting the urge to just shoot him and be done with it"? Threatening to shoot him put him in his place, but what of threatening to throw him out an airlock? Her words are surely born more of anger at the possibility that Granger hurt Galina than of the intent to play mind games.
She's making it crystal clear to him just how seriously he fucked up by NOT FOLLOWING ORDERS to stay far away from Galina in the first place. Some beings are too full of themselves to think of anything *but* themselves (again, that can be considered a trait of a psychopath, though not on its own unless taken to an extreme, as self-interest is a survival trait) and Granger is (or at least so far appears to be) one of them.
Also, some people say things when upset (which Kiku is extremely pissed off right now, I'm sure, though she's maintaining self-discipline as evidenced by the fact that despite having a loaded gun trained on him, she has NOT shot him) that tend to either not be meant seriously once they've calmed down, or come out a bit more extreme than in actuality intended.
Look at it whichever way you like, I'm seeing it as a mix of both. Kiku doesn't strike me as the type to act that rashly, she seems (so far) well-trained and highly disciplined, though my analysis on that is far from complete.
@velvetsanity
Granger is not guilty of not following orders. He's a civilian, he can't be given orders. He's disregarding instruction. At worst that could get him fired. The fact that he almost killed Galina is the arguably criminal act here.
Granger prefers his own company, and can be brusk around other people, but that doesn't make him uncaring. We haven't seen him in a situation where he has the opportunity to show care. His only interaction with someone he considers a person that we've seen is with May, who was also not where she's allowed to be, and in his way as a result.
I agree with your assessment of Kiku's temperament. I'm just saying that that description falls short of saintly.
Reprehensible or not, it took the threat of death to get Granger out of his own head and pay attention to the situation at hand. He may be convinced that he is in the right but is only now realizing that the consequences of his actions are in the hands of people he has no control over. The Captain obviously has had to deal with Granger before and is aware that it takes A LOT to get through his self rightousness. She's likely fighting the urge to just shoot him and be done with it. I know I would, having met people like him.
at Sleel that fact you just mentioned DOES tick off the good capt... but as others have said she needs to lock this down FAST and granger is the only one still running his mouth at full speed .. so shes shutting him up..
As for the bit about Granger not being guilty of not following orders because he's a Civilian. I'm sorry, but he's absolultely guilty.
If a Civilian has been warned not to enter a certain locale, and in doing so may endanger another civilian/civil servant/security personel, it is incumbent upon the security personel appearant, to stop said civilian with an appropiate response, including threats of violence, actual violence and even lethal responses if the situation is dire enough.
And that's pretty much straight out of the security handbook from the FBI. In short, if "the police" tells you not to go somewhere, don't do it, they *will* be required to stop you and they *will* be allowed to use "appropiate response", as decided by themselves.
That depends on who told him not to go near Galina. It's not a crime scene, it's a medical facility. And the "patient" is arguably a machine. So he's effectively intruding on a another scientist lab. He is there without permission, but he doesn't see himself as doing harm.
Too Smart!
He's a Fool for Himself*.
What was he going to do with Galina's data once he got it? It's not like he could easily just disappear with it. He does live and work in a limited, security controlled environment.
That's why I wonder about outside influences.
He was going to take Gali's data back to his lab and review it. Under most circumstances, that wouldn't really have been a problem, since under most circumstances, taking a copy from an android or robot doesn't do any damage.
So, not only is he so foolish that he makes a fairly useless tool, but also foolish enough to fail as a Fool.
For a fool must have both intelligence, werewithal and social understanding to make fun of the situation successfully without loosing his own head, and Dr Granger seems exponentially deficient in the department that keeps ones head attached to ones body!
actually sadly he would not have dsicovered untill AFTER the rip copy was done. that Galina was dead and only a part of the data would have actually been copyed.. and nothing of her emotions ...
If there is a most consistent human flaw, it is presuming that others see the world exactly as we do. That they know what we know, and that their moral system at least maps to ours. My favorite example, and MOST appropriate to this discussion is racism. Racism has only become a dirty world since WWII, and only in the West. Think about that. Now, look at the situation confronting Dr. Granger: You have here one machine, and another biological machine hybrid of some sort. You know--they same way that we know that racism is wrong--that machines cannot possess true self-awareness. You also know that even the extraordinarily primitive ELIZA program was able to fool a substantial number of people into believing it was conversing. Therefore, those people who mistakenly assign humanity to these things are engaged in an exceptionally dangerous delusion. It is a very small step to believe that extreme measures are appropriate.
The captain herself wasn't the one who laid down that particular law with Granger. (Note the phrasing: "You were SPECIFICALLY told not to approach Miss Kotko." Not "I told you not to etc".)
I don't like the guy but then I'm not the machines don't have souls type. But the being given orders to stay away and not doing so shows something stinks. Whether his own arrogance or not, command is not being taking serious and in vacuum that's a bad thing. And finally Amy yes he did program her (in a way that wasn't working), so I'm going to have to say she is more Jet's creation than the "good doctor's".
Yeah, he's definately done some stupid stuff here.
As for Amy, I thought she was build and programmed on Earth, and all Dr Granger had done was study her, so he could learn to build one himself. Heck he might even have tried ti make improvements, though we don't have any exact knowledge of that.
Dr. Grangers was trying to make Amy more "Human" in her interactions ( instead of a walking toaster ) sadly his changes were having no effect amy continued to refuse to make independent decisions.. it wasnt untill Jet and Galina argued that Jet realized that Amy's Directive control sets - ( deasiged by a umbrella type organasation to cover almost any situation ) were acting as walls preventing her from doing anything without direct orders. Dr Granger wanted a copy of Galina's programming because it would provide him with a "perfect" emotional simulation, hes actually rather enamored of Galina's software - but he thinks the body is pure junk and contains way too much biologicals and such and too many flaws.
sense they are going to operate anyway. he was just going to take a "backup" and study the back up and let Galina go on her merry way .. he just did not know how deeply the biologicals are tied to the robotics .. once he does realize this he will proably be sickened at what almost happened..
Reminds me of a game where an advanced society found a way to go to both Heaven and Hell, so they first invaded Hell and turned the burning brimstone lakes into powerplants, and then invaded heaven and turned it into vacation resorts.
The Captain still has the marks from dealing with an irrational asshole. She was forced to shoot him. Now she is dealing with an unreasonable asshole and threats seem to be working on him. Hope so for his sake as she is in no mood for his bullshit right now.
Yukimura: "You know I SHOT the last asshole who caused me trouble, right?"
Granger: "Yes, and I hear he got back up again and pistol-whipped you."
Yukimura: ". . ." *kneecap*
In the turrets?
Now we know!
But is he working for his own 'ego' or is he an agent for someone else?
I really wanna see Tokyo Rose jump his ass from a TV Screen.
... no ?
Why not?
Would you all really condemn a blind man to a cruel and violent death for not being able to see what he's doing?
BTW those are his redeeming qualities. So yes he tried to kill one person who he had been told to not go near until accompanied by a full team, tried to order another one killed. Turn about seems like fair play to me.
This is what you are saying about Granger, his character didn't see them as human so he did not try to kill them. BULLSHIT!
now at the core of King Mirs statement hes saying Granger sees galina as a "tool" and thats correct. he does. he thinks her protests and such are just malfunctions or designed to protect "trade secrets" and that everyone has been anthropromorphizing a glorified walking computer. he would even admit that galina is clever .. but only so much as one pats a animal on the head for mimicing a human.. and he knows for a "FACT" MOST machines can be copyed.. or shut down without harm Galina is the only special case here due to her organic brain hybrid .. so at best he is guilty of sloppy science.. at worst hes charged with attempted murder.. however the fact remains Galina is NOT considered Human if she is a "machine intelligence" ... case closed.
(( I know we know diffrently but just sayin.. ))
But Granger's attitude is stronger than racism. A racist sees themselves as superior to others by virtue of their birthright, but does not generally fail to recognize others as people. People that can feel. People that can be hurt. Granger sees Amy not as a person that can feel but as a broken machine, a program with bugs that he cannot track down. Galina is a rival's machine with the same function.
That is indeed more tragic, but it does not make him more evil. Granger would not, as far as we have seen, try to kill a person to achieve his ends. He does not see himself as a killer.
However, having been ordered to stay away from Galina prior to this incident yet attempting to dissect her and see how she worked *anyway*, that puts another mark on the psychopath checklist.
Incidentally, psychopaths can't see anyone other than themselves as anything more than tools to achieve their goals...or obstacles to be removed.
He is apparently guilty of attempted software piracy, but that only puts him on par with someone downloading a movie via P2P.
But Granger doesn't see her that way, so that's moot in determining his culpability.
That makes him just plain stupid.
The expansion of the true definition of a "person" is kind of the theme of this entire story.
Granger would never try to hurt or kill a human being. He may not like very many people, he may be arrogant and full of himself, but he is not the type to commit violence or murder. He's not a psychopath.
That said, I'm bedazzled by how much hate the guy's gotten. This is AFTER Cent and I debated over how much of a jerk we wanted him to be; balancing "huge gaping asshole" with "detached scientist" has been challenging. I begin to wonder if he would have been LESS hated if he'd swanned in and outright belted May across the face like Cent originally conceptualized . . .
For example, typical corporate CEOs fit all of the criteria for what is known as a "successful" psychopath. The violent, murderous psychopaths are considered to be "failed" psychopaths.
Sorry Rose, if you didn't want him to be a psychopath, you and CentComm shouldn't have given him all the traits you have.
Now admittedly, we haven't been around him for years so there may be a completely different personality (heck, it is possible he could suffer from DID for all we know). What we (the readers) have been exposed to of Granger's personality shows a strong match of psychopathic characteristics.
And so far, the primary trait Granger has *not* shown for being a typical 'successful psychopath' is charisma/charm.
Put dr. Granger in a few scenes where he saves galina's butt or something and I'm ready to bet that suddenly people will be singing his praise and because he's a jerk, probably say he's baddass or something like that.
It's easy to get caught up on the moment and the this is the first time we see him, and withouth a background story except for what was told in the comments so it's easy for people to demonize him since he was this close to kill someone we car about and he didn't seem to care.
I myself will reserve my judgement of him until I have a better knowledge/backstory or understanding of his character.
So far he is human, a flawed, mistaken, hopefully well intentioned that made a very stupid decision that turned out with spectacular results.
Also remember that the few pages only show basically a few minutes of real time. Realizations and reasonings have only begun to surface.
I think it's stuck in "hide" mode, but there's no cover. :D
Offcourse, that means that Dr Granger has to do something reasonable, which he seems wont to do.
I'm not saying that her position is unjustified either, but the irony is striking.
I don't think so.
I think there's some situations where it's the proper response and thus not reprehensible by definition, but rather by situation.
ie. Violence as part of personal defense, is not reprehensible, but beating up someone so you can steal their money, is.
It isn't a threat, it is a promise and an obligation. It also could solve two problems, Granger and the NEXT would-be Granger.
Of course, as Centcomm points out, she's only threatening him. No one's going to reprimand her for doing that. The disproportional response could be considered a gambit to make Granger back down.
Also, some people say things when upset (which Kiku is extremely pissed off right now, I'm sure, though she's maintaining self-discipline as evidenced by the fact that despite having a loaded gun trained on him, she has NOT shot him) that tend to either not be meant seriously once they've calmed down, or come out a bit more extreme than in actuality intended.
Look at it whichever way you like, I'm seeing it as a mix of both. Kiku doesn't strike me as the type to act that rashly, she seems (so far) well-trained and highly disciplined, though my analysis on that is far from complete.
Granger is not guilty of not following orders. He's a civilian, he can't be given orders. He's disregarding instruction. At worst that could get him fired. The fact that he almost killed Galina is the arguably criminal act here.
Granger prefers his own company, and can be brusk around other people, but that doesn't make him uncaring. We haven't seen him in a situation where he has the opportunity to show care. His only interaction with someone he considers a person that we've seen is with May, who was also not where she's allowed to be, and in his way as a result.
I agree with your assessment of Kiku's temperament. I'm just saying that that description falls short of saintly.
If a Civilian has been warned not to enter a certain locale, and in doing so may endanger another civilian/civil servant/security personel, it is incumbent upon the security personel appearant, to stop said civilian with an appropiate response, including threats of violence, actual violence and even lethal responses if the situation is dire enough.
And that's pretty much straight out of the security handbook from the FBI. In short, if "the police" tells you not to go somewhere, don't do it, they *will* be required to stop you and they *will* be allowed to use "appropiate response", as decided by themselves.
EDIT: Also, Reductio ad Hitlerum
Is he a Fool
Or a Tool*?
[If so, for Who?]
He's a Fool for Himself*.
What was he going to do with Galina's data once he got it? It's not like he could easily just disappear with it. He does live and work in a limited, security controlled environment.
That's why I wonder about outside influences.
*(I bet it was 'love at first sight"!)
For a fool must have both intelligence, werewithal and social understanding to make fun of the situation successfully without loosing his own head, and Dr Granger seems exponentially deficient in the department that keeps ones head attached to ones body!
I mean, it's not like he would have been able to keep it a secret that he visited her, especially not if he starts to cut her open.
That's just *lousy* self preservation skills.
Amen.
*hugs May, Galina and Amy*
As for Amy, I thought she was build and programmed on Earth, and all Dr Granger had done was study her, so he could learn to build one himself. Heck he might even have tried ti make improvements, though we don't have any exact knowledge of that.
sense they are going to operate anyway. he was just going to take a "backup" and study the back up and let Galina go on her merry way .. he just did not know how deeply the biologicals are tied to the robotics .. once he does realize this he will proably be sickened at what almost happened..
...and lack of forethought
This begs the question: if all those "bad" people had good intentions, does anyone really deserve hell?
Of the ground paved over
How it feels about it.
Meanwhile God and Satan were put in prison. :D
Amy was the base template for Kali???
.. who knows, maybe Amy *is* Kali ?
Yukimura: "You know I SHOT the last asshole who caused me trouble, right?"
Granger: "Yes, and I hear he got back up again and pistol-whipped you."
Yukimura: ". . ." *kneecap*